Nectarine

Hi all, per some discussion in the chat the other day, we really should be phasing out the game music. I realise that most of it has been here for like 15 years, but things were different back in the early days of Nectarine. There were few if any internet radio stations at that time, and certainly Necta was one of the only ones dedicated to vintage computer music.

In the modern "YouTube age", It doesn't really make sense for Nectarine demoscene radio to stream so much non-demoscene-related stuff. Anyone can hear the Commando soundtrack, see the game, etc whenever they like by punching it into YT. The stream really should be dedicated to demoscene, not same-old-same-old game soundtracks.

To be clear, we're not "deleting" anything, we're just locking a lot of game tunes so they don't show up on the stream anymore. As said above, you can hear them whenever you like in plenty of other venues, and if you are dying to hear some particular version of Prehistoric Tale or whatever, you can even use our "Listen" link.

I am also interested in making the upload interface easier to use, so if anyone has any good ideas on that, please let me know.

I'm fine with this especially since lots of that stuff is indeed overplayed and can be requested on CVGM.

I wouldn't remove gameremixes made by sceners which are used in famous cracktros or demos.

EDIT: (nov 2024)
I emphasize that there is a problem: where the line between game stuff and demo stuff is drawn?

Previously there has been conflicts about recent game songs made by old scene guys. Demarcation problem also arises within the context of older material: songs used in cracktros clearly have more scene relevance than ie. songs from Turrican.

Now removing all commercial game songs would be a very clear cut solution for this.

On the other hand, especially all music used in cracktros and demos is scene related and scene relevant. So there's also a sound argument for having them here.

I would be fine with this if things like "Commercial CD" sourced songs were also removed, otherwise it's a bit of a double standard.

Where were you in 1988? What do you know about that era's Demoscene?
You believe God created the Demoscene in 6 days, don't you?
Most C64 game music is demoscene related and that's no mystery why it inspired so many demoscene musicians.
CSDB and HVSC are curated by sceners.

When I was one of Nectarine's two main admins back before 2008's hack, keeping the right balance between historical / fundational / fondamental game music and pure demoscene stuff was already a subject. We came up with some locking time mitigation but enjoyed them fully. That's also why my jingles were mostly based on C64 inspirational games music, just to remind that they were part of our Demoscene cultural legacy.
Demosceners like old games music. (see real top 100) Just because you don't appreciate these tunes doesn't make you a wiser scener.
Nectarine was Demoscene's radio in Dr Yes' eyes. You are turning it in Demoscene biggots' radio.

And no, enjoying the broadcast with fellow sceners (and even more with people only vaguely interested in the Scene) is not the same thing as listening your playlist alone.

Sorry for not writing like a polite and civilized citizen, but this got me upset and had a bad day in lab.
I didn't expect cancel "culture" to hit Scenestrem.net.
I feel like Nectarine is dying for the third time...
I will probably calm down...

To be honest, I am more annoyed at overplayed tunes, like on Fridays Hyperbase/Enigma, Onward Ride, and other overplayed 4chn Amiga demoscene modules. I'd rather listen to Prehistoric Tale anyway anyday on nectarine, but that's just my 2 cents...
And (esp 8bit, a few 16bit) game music and demo scene music is often interconnected, used in cracktros, demos... where to draw the line? It's difficult. On CVGM, they have game music AND demoscene music and don't delete/lock the demoscene music, although the focus is a bit more on game music... I would tolerate the game music on here, doesn't annoy me like the songs mentioned above.

If i can have my opinion, it would give a preference to actual demoscene releases (parties/demos/music compos and such) and give a link to a game music stream elsewhere,but it could be a huge work to determine which ones are the legacy game music i guess.

But sounds fair enough to "ieave out" if it is not demoscene related. I could suggest forwarding from those, into those game music resources just if there is one, and perhaps djrandom not taking non scene related to playlist, but some could be possible for a manual requests if someone wanted so for some reason, like for comparison between a remix and original. Just perhaps

Shortly said, what you are suggesting, makes sense to me.

Shouldn't be per author restricted, since some did both game music and scene releases. IMO it is not an either-or of a choice per tune anyway..

While jazz heavily influenced rock'n'roll, you don't hear (much, if any) jazz on a rock'n'roll radio station.

I don't feel enormously strongly about whether we have the game tunes, but I did always find the big C64 game names (Hubbard, Huelsbeck, Galway, Daglish, Gray...) to be quite overplayed, relative to other content on the stream. They seemed to be on everybody's faves list, so they would come up again and again and again. I could say the same about a few of the famous demoscene tracks though. That's perhaps more of a Lock Time issue in the end.

And calling it "cancel culture" is silly. This isn't a campaign to smear or destroy those composers, and criminalise everybody who supports them. It's a (perceived) matter of relevance, which we are openly discussing here right now.

Mirrorbird pretty much hits the nail on the head here; that has been the general evolving attitude towards the large amount of general C64/Atari game music soundtracks on the stream. Nectarine is a radio station and an archive. As a radio station, we try to focus on demoscene music. As noted in other posts on the site, including the FAQ, previous eras of nectarine were more of a free-for-all, especially in the very beginning when internet radio was a new thing, and there were few if any stations that played vintage computer music at all.

While some may regard stuff like hyperbase as overplayed, it's a famous demotune, and there seems to be a tradition now of compulsively queuing it on Fridays. Generally speaking, demotunes are always active unless there's a good reason for them not to be played on the stream. As a radio, we avoid playing tunes that are very long, difficult to listen to, too offensive, etc. See the FAQ for more on this.

As for game soundtracks, a compromise was arrived at where the popular tracks remain active on the stream, but other incidental tracks, ports of the same game to various other platforms, etc, are not necessarily active. The main idea is to provide a good demoscene listening experience.

As an archive, we have not "deleted" or "cancelled" (??) any uploaded tunes, game tunes or otherwise. In fact we avoid deleting anything at all, and even songs that turn out to be exact duplicates of other uploads are handled with care. In a big library, books that aren't on the public shelves are stored in the back, not destroyed, and it's the same principle here.

Many old game tunes are considered foundational to the scene, and popular ones remain active for that reason. Some are harder to explain (Monkey Island, for example) but if that's what people really want to hear, that's cool. If you as a listener feel there are some tunes that are locked right now but shouldn't be due to high scene relevance and popularity (and that aren't ports or remixes), by all means let us know. The radio exists for listeners, but at the same time the site has evolved from the sort of "computer music free for all" it was long ago, into a more demoscene focused radio. Generally speaking, people are not turning on our radio in order to hear the complete soundtrack to the ST port of Double Dragon.

I think we are distinguished from SceneSat by having a more open musical attitude, particularly as regards vintage tunes, and while CVGM is sort of a sister site, their policies have nothing to do with us. If they focus on game music but allow demotunes, that's their business. It does not follow that we must therefore allow all game tunes.

What doh said.

Agree with doh and fara.

I don't see the point to block song queuing when this song is part of necta for years and is not so played that you can't hear demo music.

Taking the exemple of Prehistoric Tale, I really think it is part of nectarine and demoscene even if it's a game song.

Fridays fiestas are a good example that Necta is a multicultural radio : once it was Cyborg Jeff day, now it is more Hyperbase, I don't know what it will be tomorrow. But it's a radio, sometimes I love what I hear, sometimes I don't like it and I turn it off, and sometimes I discover great and enjoying songs...

It's important to consider, that the C64 game composers, like Hubbard, Daglish, Huelsbeck, were also very skilled coders, so it is scene enough IMO

Overplayed tunes are mostly the issue of lock times, IMO (x2).
I wouldn't consider deactivating ALL of the game tunes a wise idea, but who knows

I agree with doh, looper and mindiell.

Yes, this debate has been up many times now... the need to purge game music.
Some people here on Nectarine are a bit fixated on the tagline "Nectarine - demoscene music". But I think this tagline was not something Yes included from the very start. When I joined, Necta was a mix of game music and scene music - a great blend indeed.

In the 80s and 90s those two sources (game & demoscene) of computer music often went hand in hand, and they influenced and inspired each other. With artists moving from one scene to the other, or active in both even.

For me personally - Nectarine is the home of both these worlds. Or at least so for music created during the years between 1980-2000. It's been a haven for us to enjoy computer-based music from this magic era, exploring the vast database here, and as a moderator working many hours to improve the DB data. I would hate to see such a big part of Nectarine disappear.

prowler said it beautifully!

Playing Tim and Geoff Follins' game soundtracks might become locked if these people were "just regular musicians".
Or if the site stopped being a tribute to the many talented artists who used their gifts to make demoscene stronger, by any means.

I feel like this "discovery" is a disappointment.